Well said. There are certain perceptions regarding Trump's policies and the 2020 election I would challenge, but that's a discussion for another time... What I absolutely agreed with you is this mirror needs be held up for those in the occult/witch community as well. What you said about the psychedelic community is what I have wanted to say about the witch community for so long, except you've done it much more eloquently than I could/would. So thank you for putting my sentiment into words.
There is never enough emphasis on the need to watch out for propaganda and misinformation from both sides. And yes by having real open-minded discussions and willingness to hear the other side out would be one way to fight the purposeful division by the covert elite.
Hi Eimi, thank you so much for your kind words and for your reflection. I understand the Trump issues I mentioned are more nuanced than I delved into. Happy to discuss that with you sometime and hear your perspective.
Also, I was just talking to a friend on Facebook who lives in New England who also mentioned how her occult community was fractured due to culture war issues. I've heard it from people in so many different communities, and in places I thought would be less susceptible, like magical and psychedelic communities. I think most people are coming from a good place initially, but it's the pressure to get things "right" when many things are way more complex than a right or wrong answer.
I totally agree with the propaganda on both sides and hearing each other out is the only way to not to fall prey to the division that's by design.
In our society shaped by colonialism we are so engrained to believe in a good/bad or as John mentioned us/them, right/wrong, left/right on and on. Led to believe people fit their boxes perfectly. Even after claiming to have freed ourselves or “woken up to the truth” we may forget that poses us as if we’re above the rest or the “other.” When no matter what side or group/community you may seem to align more with you have your individual thoughts, beliefs, values, morals etc... meaning even you/I am not the epitome of that side. So other people as well are not the epitome of the general position of a side. Everyone deserves to be heard, approached with curiosity. And in this society we seem to have developed a deep defensiveness. A desire to protect and defend those beliefs. To convince the other that your beliefs are the real truth. When we never will nor should we be debating or convincing each other to shift perspectives. Personally I could not say I align with any political side and I see your mirror in my own ways. It becomes hard when it involves legal acts toward restricting people’s bodily autonomy, right to freedom of speech, justice for those who are, and have for a long time, been oppressed. and protections of Earth.
Personally it feels a bit unhelpful to just have debates that aren’t action oriented. What is the point of holding a debate space?
If the goal is to bridge communities, find ways for to have a safe space to share their views of the world on a specific topic. (A good example is The Enemy Project) have people get to know each other’s background, where their beliefs come from. Aim questions to be that of curiosity not from an accusatory stance.
People pushing peoples perspective and putting them into a defensive space will only heighten their attachment to their beliefs, even with years of internal work our unconscious patterns will pop up. It should not be about cracking or poking holes into peoples beliefs to make them over think on the spot and attempt to exam themselves. We need to learn how to listen, not just hear and then respond/react, but listen to each other and accept that is what they believe. We can reflect what we heard to verify we are really understanding their point and then respond with our personal take. Examine the similarities and differences. Without believing one way of existing is better than the other.
When I think of the "why" of authoritarian support, I believe it comes from a deeply programmed belief that reconciliation with the "other" is impossible and "they" must be eliminated through domination. "Us vs. them" is the most effective divide and conquer technique because it obfuscates the truth of the core problem, that this country has become a huge scam of extraction and plunder, whether it be resources or time, in order to enrich a handful of oligarchs. It doesn't feel like a coincidence to me that "us vs. them" amplified after Occupy Wall Street in 2011.
The heart of the problem in our discourse to me is language. We've been coded from birth (by media, movies, and cultural norms) to see the world in a "good vs. evil" binary. Good guys and bad guys. Nuance can't exist in this framework and only one thing can be true at once, rather than many. So we use words like "progress," "growth," "safety," "capitalism," "equity," etc. with such authoritative gusto when no one actually knows what the other is talking about and we get into emotional arguments over perceived values. The discourse is incoherent and even more so online, where we can assign intentions to words without receiving the non-verbal information from in-person interaction that can fill in the blanks around one's intention.
Another problem I see is that people have either given up on persuasion or they just never learned the tools to be persuasive. No one's mind will ever be changed by telling them they are wrong as a preacher talking down. Period. It doesn't matter how "right" you are, the human mind simply doesn't work that way. A story isn't persuasive if you "tell" rather than "show."
When I try navigate a conversation with someone who is in deep within MAGA ideology, I feel like it is only when I'm able to pass through all the layers of bullshit we can start to have a real conversion. Same with anyone who has a deeply encoded ideological programming, right or left. The only way to do this is through persuasion. Asking questions that get someone to explain their logic, the "why" of their belief, and asking the right questions will eventually get you to the root of it all, and at the end of the day everyone can see that something is deeply wrong and that this "ain't it at all."
Beautifully expressed Eden. Thank you for your courage and willingness to say what many of us are thinking but are afraid to say in public spaces.
Thank you, Kathryn. I really understand and appreciate that deeply.
Well said. There are certain perceptions regarding Trump's policies and the 2020 election I would challenge, but that's a discussion for another time... What I absolutely agreed with you is this mirror needs be held up for those in the occult/witch community as well. What you said about the psychedelic community is what I have wanted to say about the witch community for so long, except you've done it much more eloquently than I could/would. So thank you for putting my sentiment into words.
There is never enough emphasis on the need to watch out for propaganda and misinformation from both sides. And yes by having real open-minded discussions and willingness to hear the other side out would be one way to fight the purposeful division by the covert elite.
Hi Eimi, thank you so much for your kind words and for your reflection. I understand the Trump issues I mentioned are more nuanced than I delved into. Happy to discuss that with you sometime and hear your perspective.
Also, I was just talking to a friend on Facebook who lives in New England who also mentioned how her occult community was fractured due to culture war issues. I've heard it from people in so many different communities, and in places I thought would be less susceptible, like magical and psychedelic communities. I think most people are coming from a good place initially, but it's the pressure to get things "right" when many things are way more complex than a right or wrong answer.
I totally agree with the propaganda on both sides and hearing each other out is the only way to not to fall prey to the division that's by design.
Well done!
Thank you very much!
In our society shaped by colonialism we are so engrained to believe in a good/bad or as John mentioned us/them, right/wrong, left/right on and on. Led to believe people fit their boxes perfectly. Even after claiming to have freed ourselves or “woken up to the truth” we may forget that poses us as if we’re above the rest or the “other.” When no matter what side or group/community you may seem to align more with you have your individual thoughts, beliefs, values, morals etc... meaning even you/I am not the epitome of that side. So other people as well are not the epitome of the general position of a side. Everyone deserves to be heard, approached with curiosity. And in this society we seem to have developed a deep defensiveness. A desire to protect and defend those beliefs. To convince the other that your beliefs are the real truth. When we never will nor should we be debating or convincing each other to shift perspectives. Personally I could not say I align with any political side and I see your mirror in my own ways. It becomes hard when it involves legal acts toward restricting people’s bodily autonomy, right to freedom of speech, justice for those who are, and have for a long time, been oppressed. and protections of Earth.
Personally it feels a bit unhelpful to just have debates that aren’t action oriented. What is the point of holding a debate space?
If the goal is to bridge communities, find ways for to have a safe space to share their views of the world on a specific topic. (A good example is The Enemy Project) have people get to know each other’s background, where their beliefs come from. Aim questions to be that of curiosity not from an accusatory stance.
People pushing peoples perspective and putting them into a defensive space will only heighten their attachment to their beliefs, even with years of internal work our unconscious patterns will pop up. It should not be about cracking or poking holes into peoples beliefs to make them over think on the spot and attempt to exam themselves. We need to learn how to listen, not just hear and then respond/react, but listen to each other and accept that is what they believe. We can reflect what we heard to verify we are really understanding their point and then respond with our personal take. Examine the similarities and differences. Without believing one way of existing is better than the other.
When I think of the "why" of authoritarian support, I believe it comes from a deeply programmed belief that reconciliation with the "other" is impossible and "they" must be eliminated through domination. "Us vs. them" is the most effective divide and conquer technique because it obfuscates the truth of the core problem, that this country has become a huge scam of extraction and plunder, whether it be resources or time, in order to enrich a handful of oligarchs. It doesn't feel like a coincidence to me that "us vs. them" amplified after Occupy Wall Street in 2011.
The heart of the problem in our discourse to me is language. We've been coded from birth (by media, movies, and cultural norms) to see the world in a "good vs. evil" binary. Good guys and bad guys. Nuance can't exist in this framework and only one thing can be true at once, rather than many. So we use words like "progress," "growth," "safety," "capitalism," "equity," etc. with such authoritative gusto when no one actually knows what the other is talking about and we get into emotional arguments over perceived values. The discourse is incoherent and even more so online, where we can assign intentions to words without receiving the non-verbal information from in-person interaction that can fill in the blanks around one's intention.
Another problem I see is that people have either given up on persuasion or they just never learned the tools to be persuasive. No one's mind will ever be changed by telling them they are wrong as a preacher talking down. Period. It doesn't matter how "right" you are, the human mind simply doesn't work that way. A story isn't persuasive if you "tell" rather than "show."
When I try navigate a conversation with someone who is in deep within MAGA ideology, I feel like it is only when I'm able to pass through all the layers of bullshit we can start to have a real conversion. Same with anyone who has a deeply encoded ideological programming, right or left. The only way to do this is through persuasion. Asking questions that get someone to explain their logic, the "why" of their belief, and asking the right questions will eventually get you to the root of it all, and at the end of the day everyone can see that something is deeply wrong and that this "ain't it at all."